Iran Missile Test

OMG, you've got to be kidding or completely ignorant of history. It's true that history does tend to repeat itself and from it we can clearly see that no amount of appeasement will ever lead to better relations with a group of people who pretty much universally want *YOU* dead.

Islam has always targeted the west for hate and violence, going back to the 8th century. The U.S. became a major target, not after the formation of Israel, but right after WWI. Which was the time of the birth of modern radical and political Islam.

They have also made their religion of hate clear world wide since then. From the murder of every Jewish person they could located in the late 20's to nearly universal Islamic support of Adolf Hitler and more specifically Hitler's vision.

I truly believe that your political correctness, and the political correctness of many like you, may someday result in your death. I mean that, someday you may have to pull your head from the sand so that those you have supported can lop it off. I certainly hope not, but it's my true opinion that things could progress to that point. There are many in Europe, including quite a few in various governmental positions there, who are now coming to that realization.

and....from a historical standpoint, congratulations for siding with Adolph Hitler over FDR and Churchill

I would rather ally with these people:

YouTube - I Am Israel - Documentary Film HD Version

than these people, any day:

YouTube- Stop the Madness! NO MORE ISLAMIC HATE!

YouTube- Muslim Mickey Mouse Calls for Muslim World Domination

YouTube- History of Hitler and Muslim Waffen SS

YouTube - Religion of Peace

Would the wholesale slaughter of every man, woman, and child in Israel bother you? I ask because that is the logical conclusion of your position, in fact it is the inevitable conclusion of you position. I can only assume that it is also you desire.

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Originally Posted by R13

1) Really? Because many question the amount of foreign aid going to a country that hasn't really done anything to deserve it, and those people don't wear white hoods. It hasn't nothing to do with jews, at all, the only ones that it does have to do with...is the supporters. An ally that has done really nothing to deserve this much attention and aid from us, is the problem.

2) Pretty clear to me. And like I said, I have a hard time believing someone who is accused of biased towards that many countries, can be that much more biased towards Israel. Or could it be that these countries just don't like when this negativity is pointed out. Has Amnesty International claimed he was used as a shield 4 different times? Because I never seen that, the link said it has been used different times, but not by them..correct? Which I'm still waiting to see these stories, because that link(which is completely biased their self) didn't prove any of it...they just said it was so.

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You would go against Israel no matter what because you hate God or whatever stupid crap you believe.

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Originally Posted by Biggin

Security???

thats ridiculous.

We would be more secure if we had nothing to do with Israel, because the US/Israel relationship makes a lot of Islamic countries target the US.

The US gives Israel on average 3 billion dollars a year in aid, military development, grants, etc... Its supporting the Jews while destroying a relationship with some Middle Eastern countries.

Do you not think that the US support of Israel, the need to constantly support Israel's Jewish population, causes hostility from Middle Eastern Islamic countries??

So the security Israel gives us is because of our relationship with Israel. Without it, the US would not be such a target.

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I believe Islamic country would hate us anyways whether we are allied with Israel or not because we basically stand for everything they hate. Our freedoms of religion, speech, press, exc. The rights women have also angers them.

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Originally Posted by Milk3

I believe Islamic country would hate us anyways whether we are allied with Israel or not because we basically stand for everything they hate. Our freedoms of religion, speech, press, exc. The rights women have also angers them.

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Exactly. In fact there are an almost infinite number of examples of Muslim leaders openly saying that....and calling for all of our heads.

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Originally Posted by Milk3

You would go against Israel no matter what because you hate God or whatever stupid crap you believe.

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Hey dumbass, where I mentioned anything about God having anything to do with this? Really, think a little before you post, I know that's hard for you. Hard for someone to hate God when they don't think one exists genius. LMAO. My beliefs on religion are probably far more thought out than yours ever has been, it came after studying and reading and taking a long hard look at things, while you've what? Believe in what everyone around you have, while not questioning anything because that's just the devil getting to you! hahahahah. Please, non-believers generally know more about religion more than the religious.

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Originally Posted by Milk3

I believe Islamic country would hate us anyways whether we are allied with Israel or not because we basically stand for everything they hate. Our freedoms of religion, speech, press, exc. The rights women have also angers them.

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What flavor is that Kool-aid? The US have fed the public that BS for years and years, it obviously still sinks in with some :rolleyes: Let's use some logic, do they hate us "because we're free" or do they hate us because we go into their country, destroy it and kill? Hmmmmmm. And sorry, the truth is pretty hard to swallow, but great Israel is one of the main reasons why Islamic nations hate us...that's fact.

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Originally Posted by Gotch

Would the wholesale slaughter of every man, woman, and child in Israel bother you? I ask because that is the logical conclusion of your position, in fact it is the inevitable conclusion of you position. I can only assume that it is also you desire.

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Ridiculous to say something like that, I don't think you're getting what we are saying here. No one is saying to make Israel an enemy, to not give a hand like we would Britain or France, to ever let something happen like that...just saying that Israel has never done anything to deserve that much support and that much aid, I get the sympathy for them....but I ask again, what have they done for us to deserve what they get from us?

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Originally Posted by Gotch

I truly believe that your political correctness, and the political correctness of many like you, may someday result in your death. I mean that, someday you may have to pull your head from the sand so that those you have supported can lop it off. I certainly hope not, but it's my true opinion that things could progress to that point. There are many in Europe, including quite a few in various governmental positions there, who are now coming to that realization.

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Let's be realistic here, that will never happen.

1) Muslims are generally peaceful, the extremist are a very small part of 1.5 billion muslims are extremist. What you're doing is picking the extremist out of Islam and labeling them the speaker of it, it wouldn't be fair for someone to pick the ones in Christianity and do that.

2) Your theory would only work if the religion got more and more extreme over the years, we both know religions don't work like that, it's the other way around. Christianity has what? 600 years on Islam? How were Christians acting 600 years ago? Barbarians, slaughters those who didn't go with Christianity and had religious states that controlled all just like Islam still does now. The fundamentalist will dwindle down over the years just like they have done and will continue to do in ALL religions. We both know that.

3) You'd have to have a significant amount of Islamic extremist here(not average muslims) here for that to ever happen. Muslims make up a little over 1/2 of 1 percent here( Most peaceful, so the extremist bunch is a whole lot lower than that) in the US, there would have to be a MASSIVE growth in the population of extremist here for this to ever happen.



There's three good reasons why that would never, ever happen. Thousands of years of trends would have to turn completely around, along with an astronomical amount of immigration of Islamic extremists here would have to happen for this to ever even be considered.

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Originally Posted by R13

Let's be realistic here, that will never happen.

1) Muslims are generally peaceful, the extremist are a very small part of 1.5 billion muslims are extremist. What you're doing is picking the extremist out of Islam and labeling them the speaker of it, it wouldn't be fair for someone to pick the ones in Christianity and do that..

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They are a larger part than many are willing to admit, and the bigger problem is that the moderate Muslims won't speak out against the actions of the radicals, for whatever reason, fear or religious doctrine. That has been shown to be true time after time. The percentage of moderate Muslims willing to criticize even the most radical of Muslim extremists is minute. There is a long and clear track record to prove that.

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Originally Posted by R13

2) Your theory would only work if the religion got more and more extreme over the years, we both know religions don't work like that, it's the other way around. Christianity has what? 600 years on Islam? How were Christians acting 600 years ago? Barbarians, slaughters those who didn't go with Christianity and had religious states that controlled all just like Islam still does now. The fundamentalist will dwindle down over the years just like they have done and will continue to do in ALL religions. We both know that..

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No other religion, regardless of it's age, can hold a candle to the violent deeds of Islam. No other religion was founded by a warlord who ordered his followers to conduct campaigns of violence against all non-believers. That comparison simply doesn't work. As violent as Christians of the Inquisition were, they were not as violent as many other groups, sects, and political movements of the time. It was a far different time in terms of human morals and today's morals cannot be interjected into that time. They were by comparison with their peers, fairly civilized. And thus your theory goes out the door.

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Originally Posted by R13

3) You'd have to have a significant amount of Islamic extremist here(not average muslims) here for that to ever happen. Muslims make up a little over 1/2 of 1 percent here( Most peaceful, so the extremist bunch is a whole lot lower than that) in the US, there would have to be a MASSIVE growth in the population of extremist here for this to ever happen..

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Exactly what folks in Europe thought only a decade or so ago. Many there are finally seeing the error of that belief. Islam has become a powerful and frightening force in many European nations. To the point that many in Europe are ready to take drastic and very un-PC actions. It would not take more than a decade or two for us to be in the same situation as many of these European nations find themselves now.

Point in case: The Mohammad cartoons.

"Hey dumbass, where I mentioned anything about God having anything to do with this? Really, think a little before you post, I know that's hard for you. Hard for someone to hate God when they don't think one exists genius. LMAO. My beliefs on religion are probably far more thought out than yours ever has been, it came after studying and reading and taking a long hard look at things, while you've what? Believe in what everyone around you have, while not questioning anything because that's just the devil getting to you! hahahahah. Please, non-believers generally know more about religion more than the religious."

LOL anytime someone mentions religion you start going nuts. You should not be calling people names either they may just stick a foot in your backside.

"What flavor is that Kool-aid? The US have fed the public that BS for years and years, it obviously still sinks in with some Let's use some logic, do they hate us "because we're free" or do they hate us because we go into their country, destroy it and kill? Hmmmmmm. And sorry, the truth is pretty hard to swallow, but great Israel is one of the main reasons why Islamic nations hate us...that's fact."

They hated us way before we stepped foot over in the sand.

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Originally Posted by Gotch

OMG, you've got to be kidding or completely ignorant of history. It's true that history does tend to repeat itself and from it we can clearly see that no amount of appeasement will ever lead to better relations with a group of people who pretty much universally want *YOU* dead.

Islam has always targeted the west for hate and violence, going back to the 8th century. The U.S. became a major target, not after the formation of Israel, but right after WWI. Which was the time of the birth of modern radical and political Islam.

They have also made their religion of hate clear world wide since then. From the murder of every Jewish person they could located in the late 20's to nearly universal Islamic support of Adolf Hitler and more specifically Hitler's vision.

I truly believe that your political correctness, and the political correctness of many like you, may someday result in your death. I mean that, someday you may have to pull your head from the sand so that those you have supported can lop it off. I certainly hope not, but it's my true opinion that things could progress to that point. There are many in Europe, including quite a few in various governmental positions there, who are now coming to that realization.

and....from a historical standpoint, congratulations for siding with Adolph Hitler over FDR and Churchill

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Wow, just wow.

For such an intelligent person, you made yourself seem very ignorant and filled with hate.

So because of portion of the religion is fanatical and extremist, we should eradicate the whole religion? Are YOU kidding me?

Muslims universally supported Hitler's vision???
Not true. The pioneer of radical Islam, Muhammad Al Husseini, was fond of Hitler's beliefs and also was very outspoken in his goals to murder Jews and retake the Holy Land for only Muslims, yes. But it was far from universal support of his ideals by the Islamic community.

And the US was not an enemy of the Islamic terrorists until after WWII, more specifically after the US declared war on Germany, because of the relationship between Hitler and Al Husseini.
But its also not fair to say that Islam as a whole was anti-US, M.A.H. was not the leader of all Muslims, nor did he speak for all of them. The USA was never a major issue with Muslims until later on, after the formation of Israel.

I could go the same exact way wit Christianity.
It has been involved in violence, hate, and war since the beginning of time.
People taking the name of Christianity into violence and hatred for years, as with Islam.

You use M.A.H. indirectly as an example of Islamic violence and genocide, but if you can make an argument to eradicate all Muslims because of the works of extremists using the word of religion as a crutch, abusing it and defiling the name of Islam by misusing its followers and teachings, then why not Christianity as well?
Adolf Hitler used his religion as propaganda and distorted the real meanings of religion to serve his ambitions, and he was of Christian faith.

and how can you say I side with Hitler, when I am talking about ACCEPTANCE, PEACE, FREEDOM, being open-minded, and not judging people based on religion or race, when that is everything Hilter was against, and what the US, Britian, and other modern countries base their democracies?

There is more Islamic extremist violence now sure, but there are more Muslims in the world than any other religion.
And Muslims arent the only people who distort religious beliefs and use the name of religion in terrorism, radical Christian extremists murder abortion doctors and bomb abortion clinics.

See, you can twist anything.

Its not fair to blame a whole religion for the actions of a few, you have said that on here numerous times, correct?
Then why are you trying to blame Muslim terrorism on the Islamic religion as a whole?

I dont think the US should totally ignore Israel, but I also do not think we would be in this horrible grave danger you are saying if we did cut ties with the Israelis.

One question, do you disagree that our relationship with Israel upsets some Muslim entities?

one more point:

I would rather die a man who people knew never judged people by their beliefs or color, who gave every man equal opportunity, than live as a man who discriminated by belief or race.

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Originally Posted by Gotch

They are a larger part than many are willing to admit, and the bigger problem is that the moderate Muslims won't speak out against the actions of the radicals, for whatever reason, fear or religious doctrine. That has been shown to be true time after time. The percentage of moderate Muslims willing to criticize even the most radical of Muslim extremists is minute. There is a long and clear track record to prove that.

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I can say the same thing about Christians here when an abortion doctor gets shot, hell there were several on this board that sympathized with the last one. I disagree, how many times do groups come out and condemn when an attack happens? Honestly, even if they didn't, I wouldn't blame them at all...do you think people should constantly apologize and defend themselves for what some lunatic does half way around the world? They still do though, something I wouldn't bother with if I were them, just isn't worth it.

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Originally Posted by Gotch

No other religion, regardless of it's age, can hold a candle to the violent deeds of Islam. No other religion was founded by a warlord who ordered his followers to conduct campaigns of violence against all non-believers. That comparison simply doesn't work. As violent as Christians of the Inquisition were, they were not as violent as many other groups, sects, and political movements of the time. It was a far different time in terms of human morals and today's morals cannot be interjected into that time. They were by comparison with their peers, fairly civilized. And thus your theory goes out the door.

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The Christian God was a pretty big warlord, so it was founded by one too. Christianity has been just as violent, for longer than Islam. As I said before, Islam is still 600 year behind Christianity, the fundamentalist dwindle down over time...what makes me think Islam will be any different?

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Originally Posted by Gotch

Exactly what folks in Europe thought only a decade or so ago. Many there are finally seeing the error of that belief. Islam has become a powerful and frightening force in many European nations. To the point that many in Europe are ready to take drastic and very un-PC actions. It would not take more than a decade or two for us to be in the same situation as many of these European nations find themselves now.

Point in case: The Mohammad cartoons.

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A lot easier to go to Europe, than here to the US. There's not any significant amount here, why would I believe that there would be a huge rise in that number the next few decades? And we're talking the extremist, not your everyday muslim, don't see it happening...esp. because it would take a lot more than a few decades(that is IF I'm pretending extremist pour into here) and reverse the trend and there not be less fundamentalists 50-60 years from now. Not going to happen.

Has anyone noticed the orbit of this ICBM and the fact it will re-enter the atmosphere? It will have nice range.
Also , anybody recall Israel attacking that US ship and killing 34 people? I could never really find a decent explaination for that. The USS LIberty.




"Inconceivable that it was an accident � 3 strafing passes, 3 torpedo boats. Set forth facts. Punish Israelis responsible"
-- Clark Clifford, Secretary of Defense under Lyndon Johnson, in Minutes of NSC Special Committee Meeting, 9 June 1967



Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

It leaves no doubt of what will happen if we don't get in line with their policy in the middle east, or at least not in that time period (late 60s). If anybody has anything else , I'd like to read about it. I'd really not like to think that this was a deliberate attack.